Religion and Ethics
George H. Smith once posed this scenario (I'm paraphrasing):
Imagine if an American general in Iraq were to order his troops to capture a city and slaughter all of the men and boys in the city, as well as all non-virginal women, including all pregnant women, with the troops free to do with the virginal girls as they wished. There would very likely be a great deal of outrage on the part of the entire world that such a terrible thing had taken place. Now, imagine if the American general, in responding to this outrage and the inevitable court marshal, said something like "I did it because God commanded me to do it, and as a faithful Christian, I simply carried out his command".
This probably wouldn't sway very many people to the general's side, would it? (If you think it would, I'm eager to hear from you too.) Most people would probably be disgusted and outraged, not just by the general's actions but also by his invocation of the most holy God in defense of his terrible act. But why not?
After all, when the Israelites, those with whom God Almighty formed a covenant naming them as His chosen people, were conquering the Holy Land from the Philistines, God frequently ordered His chosen people to conquer cities and slaughter all the men, boys, and non-virginal women - including the pregnant ones - and to enslave the virginal girls.
Smith argued that religion followed ethics, and not the other way around. This was his way of establishing that leading an ethical life did not require religion - that, in fact, ethics were divorced from religion. We know that followers of the same religion once believed it was ethical to murder pregnant women, and we know that this is now considered unethical. The text of the religion has remained static, yet people believe now believe that text implies the opposite of what it once did. Either people have gotten much better at understanding the Bible, or ethics are divorced from religion.
Similarly, one late night, I was speaking with a friend who is an Evangelical Christian and is also in the Army about the enemy he might have to face someday - the mujahideen, we called them.
The mujahideen wouldn't hesitate to kill us, he said. They are cold-blooded murderers.
Yes, I said, but - just to be contrary - imagine what it would be like if you thought your God had asked you to murder innocent people for Him.
I know, he said, that my God would never ask me to murder an innocent person.
Ah, I said, but your God does ask such things of his believers. He told Abraham to kill Isaac - so you know that God orders those who have faith in Him to kill innocent people. Do you claim to know the mind of God, and that He will never again ask this of his followers?
My friend quickly changed the subject.
Which leads me to this: one of my commenters, in response to my post about al Qaeda as vanguard party, has argued that the problem is with Islam itself, that violent jihad is integral to Islam and that Islam is, structurally, designed to produce the sort of conflict we are currently fighting:
And just as every Christian chooses what to believe and what to reject from the Bible, every Muslim chooses what to believe and what to reject from the Koran. And every single one of them believes that he or she has stumbled across the one true interpretation of those texts.
Many Christians have chosen to ignore the violent, wrathful God who ordered those conquests and murders, or the God who ordered Abraham to kill his only son. Not all of them have - how many people have been killed in the name of a God who ordered his followers not to kill? One would think that the commandment - "thou shall not kill" - is pretty straightforward. No, some will tell you - it's not "thou shall not kill", it's "thou shall not murder", it's ok to kill as long as the person deserves it - and the speaker is usually the one qualified to make the decision as to who deserves it.
If a line as simple as "thou shall not kill" is so open to interpretation - and so easily ignored - then what hope do we have for the rest of these texts?
Let's use another example, homosexuality. Homosexuality is condemned in the Bible, and by modern religious authorities - but so are a great many other things. Andrew Sullivan quotes Chuck Muth:
There is a disconnect: the Bible condemns both homosexuality and divorce, but many Christians condemn one and do the other. These Christians have chosen that some words in the Bible - those about divorce - are unimportant, irrelevant, acceptable to ignore, while others - those about homosexuality - must be adhered to.
Now, let's look at an example from Islam: the appropriate dress for women. The Koran states that clothing has been provided for men and women to cover their bodies, and for luxury, but that the best garment is righteousness. Further, the Koran calls on both men and women to dress modestly - women are told to cover their breasts in public, but not their hair.
And yet, there are groups such as the Taliban who claim to want to return to an older, purer form of Islam than exists today. The Taliban, claiming to have the one true interpretation of Islam, felt that it was necessary to throw acid into the faces of women who did not cover every inch of their bodies. Likewise, the Koran says little about homosexuality, yet the Taliban could never quite decide which punishment was most Koranic - burying alive or being dropped of a building or being crushed by a collapsing wall.
In other words, there are Muslims who claim to have the one true interpretation of the Koran, and who claim that the Koran is the only guide for life, yet they make up rules and punishments which are nowhere to be found in the Koran.
Just as Christians interpret the Bible in ways that suit their needs and desires, so do Muslims. The Bible forbids murder - yet countless people have been killed, whether by the Inquisition, the Wars of Reformation, or Charlemagne's conversion of the Saxons (to name a few), in the name of a God who said "thou shall not kill". The Koran forbids the murder of innocent people, the killing of women and children, and the mutilation of one's enemies - yet al Qaeda has no problem doing any of these things in the name of Allah.
The Koran commands Muslims to engage in jihad. Muslims are free to interpret this as they wish - as a violent and bloody confrontation with the infidel, as an internal struggle for purity, or as something that can be as safely ignored as the Bible's prohibition of divorce. Most Muslims have chosen the latter two paths - the average Muslim is not engaged in terrorism, or actively trying to conquer the world. The average Muslim does pretty much what the average Christian and the average Hindu and the average Jew does - try to live his or her life.
Or are we to believe that while Christians are free to interpret the Bible as they wish, Muslims are incapable of interpreting the Koran any differently than al Qaeda and the Taliban have chosen to interpret it?
That’s why all this talk about Islam being the problem bothers me so much: it implies that a Muslim is incapable of making a choice that a Christian is capable of making. As far as I’m concerned, as an atheist, you’re all a bunch of nuts, but this strikes me as painfully bigoted.
Imagine if an American general in Iraq were to order his troops to capture a city and slaughter all of the men and boys in the city, as well as all non-virginal women, including all pregnant women, with the troops free to do with the virginal girls as they wished. There would very likely be a great deal of outrage on the part of the entire world that such a terrible thing had taken place. Now, imagine if the American general, in responding to this outrage and the inevitable court marshal, said something like "I did it because God commanded me to do it, and as a faithful Christian, I simply carried out his command".
This probably wouldn't sway very many people to the general's side, would it? (If you think it would, I'm eager to hear from you too.) Most people would probably be disgusted and outraged, not just by the general's actions but also by his invocation of the most holy God in defense of his terrible act. But why not?
After all, when the Israelites, those with whom God Almighty formed a covenant naming them as His chosen people, were conquering the Holy Land from the Philistines, God frequently ordered His chosen people to conquer cities and slaughter all the men, boys, and non-virginal women - including the pregnant ones - and to enslave the virginal girls.
Smith argued that religion followed ethics, and not the other way around. This was his way of establishing that leading an ethical life did not require religion - that, in fact, ethics were divorced from religion. We know that followers of the same religion once believed it was ethical to murder pregnant women, and we know that this is now considered unethical. The text of the religion has remained static, yet people believe now believe that text implies the opposite of what it once did. Either people have gotten much better at understanding the Bible, or ethics are divorced from religion.
Similarly, one late night, I was speaking with a friend who is an Evangelical Christian and is also in the Army about the enemy he might have to face someday - the mujahideen, we called them.
The mujahideen wouldn't hesitate to kill us, he said. They are cold-blooded murderers.
Yes, I said, but - just to be contrary - imagine what it would be like if you thought your God had asked you to murder innocent people for Him.
I know, he said, that my God would never ask me to murder an innocent person.
Ah, I said, but your God does ask such things of his believers. He told Abraham to kill Isaac - so you know that God orders those who have faith in Him to kill innocent people. Do you claim to know the mind of God, and that He will never again ask this of his followers?
My friend quickly changed the subject.
Which leads me to this: one of my commenters, in response to my post about al Qaeda as vanguard party, has argued that the problem is with Islam itself, that violent jihad is integral to Islam and that Islam is, structurally, designed to produce the sort of conflict we are currently fighting:
Got it? Straight out of the Koran. Straight from the "prophet's" mouth. But no - the Koran has nothing to do with it at all. It's all just one big misunderstanding on the part of a tiny minority of extremists who have hijacked the religion of peace.Islam is not a religion of peace. There is no such thing as a religion of peace. There are things in the Koran, as there are in the Bible, which are terrible, and there are things which are wonderful.
And just as every Christian chooses what to believe and what to reject from the Bible, every Muslim chooses what to believe and what to reject from the Koran. And every single one of them believes that he or she has stumbled across the one true interpretation of those texts.
Many Christians have chosen to ignore the violent, wrathful God who ordered those conquests and murders, or the God who ordered Abraham to kill his only son. Not all of them have - how many people have been killed in the name of a God who ordered his followers not to kill? One would think that the commandment - "thou shall not kill" - is pretty straightforward. No, some will tell you - it's not "thou shall not kill", it's "thou shall not murder", it's ok to kill as long as the person deserves it - and the speaker is usually the one qualified to make the decision as to who deserves it.
If a line as simple as "thou shall not kill" is so open to interpretation - and so easily ignored - then what hope do we have for the rest of these texts?
Let's use another example, homosexuality. Homosexuality is condemned in the Bible, and by modern religious authorities - but so are a great many other things. Andrew Sullivan quotes Chuck Muth:
Now that the Pope has spoken, let only those Catholics who are without similar sin cast stones on gay marriage. If you wish to rely on the Pope's decree with regard to gay marriage, you MUST also support what ELSE the Pope said in the same speech. In addition to condemning gay marriage, the Pope also condemned DIVORCE, ARTIFICIAL BIRTH CONTROL and TRIAL MARRIAGES. If you're Catholic and relying on the Pope's condemnation of gay marriages to support your own opposition to same-sex nuptials, you had better not be ... divorced, have ever used condoms or birth control pills and never have "shacked up" with a lover who was not your spouse. If you have, you have NO moral authority, at least based upon your Catholicism, to attack gay marriage without being considered a complete hypocrite.And that's just it - homosexuality is forbidden by the Bible, but so is divorce. Many Christians condemn homosexuals, citing the Bible as reason, but many continue to get divorces (I've read that, by religious group in America, the highest divorce rate is among Evangelicals).
There is a disconnect: the Bible condemns both homosexuality and divorce, but many Christians condemn one and do the other. These Christians have chosen that some words in the Bible - those about divorce - are unimportant, irrelevant, acceptable to ignore, while others - those about homosexuality - must be adhered to.
Now, let's look at an example from Islam: the appropriate dress for women. The Koran states that clothing has been provided for men and women to cover their bodies, and for luxury, but that the best garment is righteousness. Further, the Koran calls on both men and women to dress modestly - women are told to cover their breasts in public, but not their hair.
And yet, there are groups such as the Taliban who claim to want to return to an older, purer form of Islam than exists today. The Taliban, claiming to have the one true interpretation of Islam, felt that it was necessary to throw acid into the faces of women who did not cover every inch of their bodies. Likewise, the Koran says little about homosexuality, yet the Taliban could never quite decide which punishment was most Koranic - burying alive or being dropped of a building or being crushed by a collapsing wall.
In other words, there are Muslims who claim to have the one true interpretation of the Koran, and who claim that the Koran is the only guide for life, yet they make up rules and punishments which are nowhere to be found in the Koran.
Just as Christians interpret the Bible in ways that suit their needs and desires, so do Muslims. The Bible forbids murder - yet countless people have been killed, whether by the Inquisition, the Wars of Reformation, or Charlemagne's conversion of the Saxons (to name a few), in the name of a God who said "thou shall not kill". The Koran forbids the murder of innocent people, the killing of women and children, and the mutilation of one's enemies - yet al Qaeda has no problem doing any of these things in the name of Allah.
The Koran commands Muslims to engage in jihad. Muslims are free to interpret this as they wish - as a violent and bloody confrontation with the infidel, as an internal struggle for purity, or as something that can be as safely ignored as the Bible's prohibition of divorce. Most Muslims have chosen the latter two paths - the average Muslim is not engaged in terrorism, or actively trying to conquer the world. The average Muslim does pretty much what the average Christian and the average Hindu and the average Jew does - try to live his or her life.
Or are we to believe that while Christians are free to interpret the Bible as they wish, Muslims are incapable of interpreting the Koran any differently than al Qaeda and the Taliban have chosen to interpret it?
That’s why all this talk about Islam being the problem bothers me so much: it implies that a Muslim is incapable of making a choice that a Christian is capable of making. As far as I’m concerned, as an atheist, you’re all a bunch of nuts, but this strikes me as painfully bigoted.

72 Comments:
The centrality of Jihad in Islam
Caroline
Look, are there any Muslims out there reading this blog? The dialogue the Commenters and the Carolines has been going on for a long time - on other blogs and on this one. And, Muslims, we need to hear from you.
Is Caroline correct when she characterizes Mohammed as a war criminal and rapist? What are your views about the wars that Mohammed led?
What is Jihad? Is it "a holy war against all non-Muslims"? Does it represent a "mere excess or defect of Islam", or is it "its timeless core"?
Can Islam be reconciled with pluralistic democracy?
According to Shari'a, what are the rights of non-Muslims in a Muslim-governed state - especially atheists, agnostics and people who aren't "of the book"?
Is it true that the Shari'a calls for death to Muslim apostates? What is the current Muslim view of that?
It would be good to hear from Muslims of all types - Sunni and Shi'ite; devout and apathetic; committed and those who just view Islam as a relic inherited from their parents.
I'm sure there are a lot of people like me, who don't view the world in black and white, or in pre-conceived ideas, who just sincerely want to understand things. Please share your views with us.
VinoV: "Is Caroline correct when she characterizes Mohammed as a war criminal and rapist?"
Good Lord Vino - nobody disputes the actual facts of Muhammed's life. He beheaded some 700 Jews. He ordered his followers to kill random other people. He robbed caravans to finance his wars. He had multiple wives, including a 6 year old girl - with whom he had sex when she was 9 years old. He took as concubines the wives of men he had killed in battle. Nobody disputes these facts. "War criminal" is a value judgment, however. Google the facts of Muhammed's life yourself and draw your own conclusions about how to characterize the man. It's not a black and white issue - after all, many folks who know the facts about his life view him as the final prophet of God's sacred word, the very definition of the most perfect human being. Why do you depend on other people to tell you who he was? Google the facts for yourself and come to your own conclusions.
Caroline
Muslims, ignore Caroline. I am. She's made her views clear on numerous occassions.
But I'd like to hear from YOU. Either refute what Caroline says, or put what Mohammed did in historical context, or justify what Mohammed did, or SOMETHING.
And please respond to my other questions too. As a non-Muslim, the ability of Muslims to co-exist with me is more important than what Mohammed did or didn't do 1400 years ago.
Commenter, based on your current article and previous ones, your atheism/agnosticism is based on, or at least influenced by, the obvious imperfections of believers.
Stompin' Ronnie Hawkins responded to that viewpoint far better than I could: "I believe in God. It's His fucking ground crew I don't trust."
If you can't see beyond human imperfection, then remain an honest agnostice until you have evidence to the contrary. And when that evidence comes, I trust you will maintain your intellectual honesty.
Caroline,
I guess the disagreement is this: I don't believe that Muslims are bound to follow, like robots, all the bad stuff in the Koran any more than I believe that Christians follow each and every rule and command established in the Bible.
Not that either could, since they're both vague and self-contradictory enough so as to be impossible to follow literally. Yes, Mohammed did bad things and the Koran also has some things that we would call objectively bad, as well as things that could be interpreted in bad ways.
Why do Christians get a pass to choose what they'll believe and Muslims don't?
I don't know about you, but in my daily life I know a number of Muslims. A professor of mine is Muslim. I lived with a Muslim for four months. I just befriended a Muslim majoring in peace studies, with the intent of returning to his war-torn country in order to try to heal it. None of them even remotely resemble the bogeyman in which you seem to believe.
When there are clearly so many Muslims who have not chosen violent jihad - those three examples above included, but also people like the Sufis, or the Egyptian Kefaya movement which is currently not blowing up innocents but rather working for democratic change in their countries, or the vast majority of Muslims around the world (since all those stores and schools and hospitals and restaurants in those countries continue to have employees, I guess that Muslims must be working in order to support themselves and their families rather than engaging in jihad) - why do you believe that Islam is evil?
I really just don't get it - because Lawrence Auster says so? The gist of his argument seems to be something like "I interpret sections of the Koran to mean that jihad is explicitly ordered, therefore Muslims must and will carry out jihad".
There's no thought to Muslims who might not interpret it the way other Muslims have, or Auster has, interpreted it. And there's no thought to the idea that Muslims might be capable of ignoring an explicit order they don't like, just like Christians have no problem ignoring explicit orders against divorce.
Oh, but Auster knows that jihad is the core of Islam - and not just the concept of struggle, which some choose to interpret as personal, but violent struggle. Auster also knows, somehow, magically, that all Muslims everywhere are bound to this. They can't choose - once they're Muslims, they're either engaged in violent jihad or plotting it or biding their time until they can.
Funny, that Jesus Himself said lots of stuff about loving neighbors and not casting stones and turning cheeks, and yet Christians still can't do these things. Funny, that GOD HIMSELF said "don't kill" and then Christians, why, some just can't seem to stop killing!
Again, what bothers me is this: Auster, and you, have decided that a religion whose holy text you probably haven't read orders something explicityly, and that there's only one interpretation, which you have chosen, and that actual adherents can choose no other interpretation, and if lots of adherents have nothing to do with that interpretation, it's not because they don't care or have rejected it, but rather because, deep in a secret place in their hearts, their just biding their time.
In other words, you know Islam better than Muslims, better than people who know Muslims, better than people who have read the Koran, and furthermore, you know Islam so well as to know that it is immutable, unlike Christianity and its ethical system (which I showed to possess mutability), and that Muslims, unlike Christians, are incapable of making choices about their religion. In other words, once you convert to Islam you become a robot, with the Koran as your program, and you can do nothing except execute your code.
This strikes me not only as offensive, and hubristic, but dumb.
But, I shouldn't have "yelled" and told you to stop talking about it, and I apologize. Please, continue talking about it, because, as I've come to realize, I really want to understand how someone can come to believe what you believe. Plus, free exchange of ideas and blah blah blah. But if this place starts to look like LGF, I'll shut down the comments.
There's something of a difference in regards to transgression between Islam & Christianity that, I feel, you're missing.
In Christianity, as noted, things like homosexuality & divorce are 'forbidden'. I put these in quotes because the understanding is that these are Sinful states & the nature of Sin is that *all* are sinners.
In fact, there's no way to get around it. Even a baby has Original Sin to deal with.
The central point of Christianity is that one may obtain forgiveness & the remission of sins. Remission, not cessation. We know people will probably sin again, ask for forgiveness, etc. One can hope that, as one grows in faith, one becomes less sinful but will always be subject to the judgement of God.
Got that? This means: Homosexuality is a sin, but no more a sin - or less - than many others. Contrition & forgiveness is called for, not condemnation.
Islam, by contrast, is the way of submission. One is 'saved' only insofar as one obeys the laws as set out in the Koran & Hadith. Merit is only due those who submit more fully to Allah's will. Transgressors are not forgiven, since Imams & scholars have no power to forgive - only Allah does & Allah only condemns or rewards.
Allah is in many ways similar to a radical Calvinist form of diety. Predestination isn't as fully developed, but it isn't an alien concept either. The only loophole in regards to your damnation is whether or not you accept Islam & obey fully.
From my understandings of Islam & the character of Muhammad, Caroline is correct. Other sites, such as faithfreedom.org might have more detailed information, should there be curiousity.
Excellent, excellent, excellent post. I agree with every word 110 percent.
Commenter - of course I don't think every Muslim follows the Koranic prescriptions to kill infidels. I've already said that. But taken en masse as a group (think a bell curve here, with varying degrees of adherence to the religion) - history shows that once the population of Muslims reaches some critical mass in relation to non-Muslims, the infidels don't fare too well. Enough DO take the prescriptions seriously and enough others do nothing to stop the ones who do. With regards to the folks just going about their business - I'm sure you've seen the numerous accounts of Muslims in the west who have been found linked to terrorism and when people - friends, family, business associates were interviewed about them - said he wasn't religious at all, he was such a friendly westernized guy and then he started attending mosque regularly and he grew a beard etc etc. Two generations ago the Muslim immigrants to Europe were not radical at all. A mere 20-30 years later and their children and grandchildren are growing increasingly radicalized as their numbers increase. Too late now.
Re Christians denouncing homosexuality and hypocritically getting divorced, who cares about the latter - do you? And re homosexuality, I do not agree with denouncing it or even harassing people about it, although a large Christianized population may well prevent gay marriage from being legalized. But to tell the truth, I wish that was all we had to worry about. I'm worried about killing, slaughter. Yes, Christians kill despite the 6th commandment. But Islam is different. It specifically sanctions the killing of infidels and Muhammed himself is revered as the most perfect human being. That's a problem. If I'm wrong, then I've offended people. If you're wrong - God help us.
Caroline
Those things mentioned about Mohammed are true.
But you can't judge a person who lived 1200 years ago by modern moral standards.
Considering the marriage and sex with a very young girl, 9 years old, please have in mind that this was considered quite normal at the time.
One thing which we tend to forget about ancient peoples is that their life span was much shorter than ours today. You lived until 30, maybe 40, At 35 you were considered old. The privileged classes lived longer, but not by much.
A girl had to marry and conceive children early, so that the chlidren would be ready to marry and conceive themselves before their parents became a burdon for them.
If the normally expected life span was 30 years, then 10 years of age was a reasonable age for marriage and starting rearing children.
When it comes to marrying more than one wife, this was considered as a humanitarian and decent act by the standards of those days. A woman who's husband had been killed in battle was bound for poverty and lack of protection for her and her children. The hard manual labor, like plowing, wasn't suited for women and without it there was no food on the table. It went without saying that the new husband also adopted her children.
Most of the rules and regulations of Islam had very practical purposes and attempted solving both practical and moral problems that people of Mohammed's time and place faced.
It was forbidden to eat pork because swine suffered from parasites which made people sick as well. Same thing with shrimps and lobsters.
Had we examined our own European forefathers of that same age we'd find that they were no better than Mohammed, or even much worse.
Islam can be criticised for many things, but not for the supposedly bad behaviour of Mohammed mentioned earlier.
Tatter - the man is supposed to be a prophet - the last messenger of God's word - not just some ordinary guy living by the morals of the time. What about robbing caravans? What about chopping off the heads of 600 or 700 Jews? How does one brush that aside? What about the other murders he ordered?
Caroline
Caroline,
Jesus is more, not less, important to Christianity than Mohammed is to Islam, right? Son of God and all?
Yet Christians have no problem ignoring what He told them to do all the time.
So if Christians can ignore the son of God, why couldn't Muslims ignore the prophet of God?
Commentariat - when you are hoping that the followers of a religion DON'T follow the example of the religion's prophet (and when folks can get in big big trouble for blaspheming his name, as he is the very model of human perfection), it's probably safe to say that the religion itself may be the problem.
Tatter - what about Muhammed ordering eyes gouged out and hands and feet cut off?
Muhammad and the Muslims from Uraynah
Caroline
What about....
lighting a fire on soneone's chest?
"The apostle gave orders that the ruin was to be excavated and some of the treasure was found. When he asked him about the rest he refused to produce it, so the apostle gave orders to al-Zubayr Al-Awwam, "Torture him until you extract what he has." So he kindled a fire with flint and steel on his chest until he was nearly dead. Then the apostle delivered him to Muhammad b. Maslama and he struck off his head, in revenge for his brother Mahmud."
Caroline
What about....
Assassination of poets?
“Who will rid me of this pestilential woman?” he said about ’AsmA. Omayr ibn ’AdI, a blind man and a fanatic convert from her own clan, offered to assassinate her, which he did while she was asleep with her child in her arms. “Have you slain the daughter of MarwAn?” Muhammad inquired eagerly when Omayr returned from his mission. When he replied in the affirmative, Muhammad commended him to his Companions. “If you desire to see a man that has assisted the Lord and His Prophet, look ye here,” he told them.3
The same fate overtook AbU ’Afak the very next month. “Who will rid me of this scoundrel?” Muhammad uttered aloud. And again there was a ready assassin at hand. SAlim ibn ’Umayr of BanI Amr, the people with whom AbU ’Afak had cast his lot and lived, stabbed the man one night while he was sleeping.
Most of the local converts, including the two assassins named above, had not fought at Badr. So they still had to prove their loyalty in action to the Prophet and to the new creed. This they did by these perfidious acts.
Hardly had six months elapsed when the blow fell on another influential half-Jewish poet, Ka’b ibn al-Ashraf. We have already mentioned his case. Muhammad made a special petition to Allah for his elimination. “Lord, deliver me from the son of Ashraf . . . because of his open sedition and verses,” he prayed. “Go with the blessings of Allah and assistance from high,” he told the departing assassins, and when they returned after fulfilling their task, Muhammad met them at the very gate of the mosque in welcome. One of the conspirators had received a wound by accident. Muhammad treated it in his usual way-he spat on it and it was healed."
Caroline
What about...
this? - The examples of Muhammad
Caroline
Sidebar on the original post: AFAIK mainstream Christianity rejects human sacrifice, as the sacrifice of Christ on the cross supercedes forevermore the need for burnt offerings to God. Therefore, the New Testament God wouldn't ask that of a follower. I'm a little disappointed your friend didn't know that basic point.
VinoV: "Commenter, based on your current article and previous ones, your atheism/agnosticism is based on, or at least influenced by, the obvious imperfections of believers....If you can't see beyond human imperfection, then remain an honest agnostice until you have evidence to the contrary. And when that evidence comes, I trust you will maintain your intellectual honesty."
Exactly - Good luck to anyone who calls themselves a Christian who can go through their entire life honoring to perfection every one of the 10 commandments, including perfectly emulating the selfless life of Jesus, whoever he may have been.
I say that as a nominal Christian, becuase as I think I've made clear - I gravitate strongly towards the eastern traditions and philosophers - Krishnamurti, Zen Buddhism - and recently I've disovered the amazing book "I Am That" by Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj.
I was, however, raised a Catholic and left the church at age 19. To cite a bit of what I consider nonsense from my Catholic upbringing - confession. I think it's utter nonsense to believe that when I go sit in that booth and confess my "sins" to the man behind the door and then go say 10 Hail Mary's - that my sins are dissolved. I took my last confession at age 13.
But as a commenter on another blog put it - there's a difference between "Nonsense" and "Dangerous Nonsense". Maybe that's a distinction that is particularly difficult for an atheist to make. I don't know. But it's a distinction that I don't find difficult to make at all.
Caroline
One caution I'd make is that Islam is just as divided as Christianity, if not moreso, so that we cannot just say "Well, Islam believes this." To quote from Zeyad's blog Healing Iraq:
---
"When Islamic clerics today say "This isn't the real Islam." or "Islam is a religion of compassion and peace." one should ask them which actual Islam are they referring to? The Islam of Sunni subsects of Hanafiya, Malikiya, Shafi'iya, and Hanbaliya? The Islam of Shia subsects of Imamiya, Zaidiya, Ismaeliya, Allawiya, Nasseriya, and Darziya? The Islam of Sufiya? The Islam of Wahhabiya? Of Salafiya? Of Kharijiya? Which and whose interpretation of Islam? That of Bin Laden? That of Qardhawi? Of Sha'rawi? Of Sayyed Qutb? Of Khomeini? Of Sadr? Of Sistani? There is no consensus whatosever on any verse of the Quran despite 14 centuries of exegesis and debate, because 'only Allah knows the hidden explanation.'
Any sect of the above can give you a different interpretation and can justify whatever actions they carry out. Each sect claims it is the 'chosen one' and that only its version of Islam is the right one, some go as far as labelling followers of other sects 'infidels' and justifies slaughtering them. A follower of any of the above believes that they are where they are today after much critical thought and evaluation of evidence when in fact it can only be explained by blind faith and heredity. If I was born a Hindu then I would definitely think that I am right and that others are wrong, infidels if you wish. If I was born in Mecca before Muhammed I would definitely be praising Hubel for the rest of my life. If I was born a heathen in the jungles of Congo I would definitely scorn missionaries that would try to convert me. It looks like it is going to take centuries for Muslims to realise that NO religion is superior to another, and that NO one adheres to a specific religion because it is the 'right' one. So if we would just stop killing and taking revenge on each other in the name of religion and move on we would not be where we are today."
Tagryn - I couldn't agree more. A billion or so people were born into this religion. Most of them are very very good people. Good despite Islam. But a huge number don't even know the facts about their own Prophet because they aren't allowed to question such things. Apparently many of them are bad because they DO know - and they emulate their prophet (often the MOST educated) but even so - as far as I'm concerned, even their "badness" is merely conditioned. A whole lot of others turn a blind eye to the bad ones and cannot condemn their actions - because if they do know and say what they know - they can be killed and for the ones who maybe only vaguely know but aren't sure, they are terrified of winding up in hell if they aren't sure, so easier to turn a blind eye for that insurance policy to heaven. Fear is a powerful thing. Probably the most powerful motivator in the human psyche.
But frankly I have the least tolerance for westerners - who are actually still free to discuss this openly (it may be a narrow window that we can do so, with the encroachment of "hate speech" laws - that actually condemned 2 Christian preachers to prison in Australia for quoting directly from the Islamic texts themselves!) but find it difficult to do so nonetheless due to the pressures of "political correctness" or merely casual social pressure (a mighty force actually that) to not "rock the boat" or seem "intolerant" and so on.
I have no problem discussing this. I am talking about an IDEOLOGY. Islam is an ideology! It isn't a race. It isn't something that someone is born with. If we can't even discuss such an ideology openly in the west now - what hope is there in the future? Islam has survived as an ideology thus far because people who were having this discusssion (outside the west) could be and WERE tortured, imprisoned and killed. Why do western (classic) liberals not see this obvious fact? Don't they care?
Doesn't it matter to anyone that if we desperately need Islam to reform - to address things like jihad and death for apostasy, and women's rights, and punishment for blasphemy, and a death sentence for homosexuals and on and on - even the facts about the religion's prophet! that we need to TALK ABOUT IT? That we need to put PRESSURE on Muslims to address this stuff?
So what if Muslims think that non-Muslims are uncomfortable about this stuff (ISLAMOPHOBIA!)? Who the hell cares? Why shouldn't we question it, with millions of Muslims moving into the west? What's wrong with that? Defend it! Or reform it! In other words, Shit or get off the pot! Doesn't anyone listen to the messages of the likes of Zawahiri? He defends jihad on the grounds of westerners being in Muslim lands. Doesn't he know how many Muslims are actually in western lands?
But no - instead, people ask stupid questions like - what do you want to do - "Kill all the Muslims?". Fuck no! What is that? Projection??
Or - "Don't hurt anyone's feelings here". As if someone getting their feelings hurt was the worst thing that could possibly happen to a person. Well - given the modern liberal world and what goes on in the school system, I suppose that's how it is. Only spoiled pampered people could possibly imagine that getting their feelings hurt was the worst possible thing that could happen to a human being. And yes - I have to conclude that that's precisely what the west has become. "Personal feelings" trump "Truth", or even any inquiry into the latter. Is that what postmodernism is all about? "Feelings"? Because all truth is utterly relative?
Caroline
Excellent article that explains alot about all the conflicting messages relating to Islam:
Is Islam a religion of peace?
Islamist scholars have to reconcile the apparent contradiction between the earlier peaceful examples of Muhammed and the corresponding Koranic verses (which the peaceful Muslims cite) and the later violent examples of Muhammad's life and the corresponding Koranic verses (which the violent Muslims cite) - and they do that via the concept of "abrogation" - whereby the latter examples and verses take precendent over the former examples and verses.
So what is the average, objective, non-invested (infidel) observer to make of this?
Bottom line? Muhammad was mentally ill. And we're all left dealing with the legacy of his insanity. There's a whole lot of evidence to support that assertion. Google it.
Caroline
Caroline, what do you want people to do with this information you're posting?
I'm not going to defend Mohammad or the Koran. That's a fool's game. I won't defend the Bible either. It's all a bunch of superstitious nonsense from the ancient Middle East. I have moved on, and it's high time everyone else did too.
But I will defend my liberal Muslim friends who are interested in peaceful co-existence and who hate terrorism and dictatorship. If you don't believe such people exist, well, go to West Beirut and say "yes" when people invite you to coffee with them.
Interesting but not as interesting as it might be. Where does Uninformed Opinion fall, atheist, anti-theist or agnostic and roughly within what set of beliefs more specifically? Or did he/she just plop in from the head of Athena? Some placement in time and space one would, based on a lot of empirical evidence, assume. If atheist, in a militantly secular sense as in Karl M? If not, is that only because we now know the results of much of what occurred, but the answer would have been a yes a hundred years ago? Or an Epicurean atheist or agnostic? We all live in time and space. IOW the accusative theme can easily be turned on the accuser 'cause no one emerged from the head of Athena and no one lives their life in the abstract. Though some have attempted to do so and perhaps someone like Martin Heidegger would be an example thereof.
Michael J. Totten said...
Caroline, what do you want people to do with this information you're posting?
Most likely she wants a more honest informed and deeper discussion than even this one.
This discussion started out with an article that argued that western ethics and morality is newer than Judaism or Christianity, and thus, by way of analogy, perhaps Muslims will one day find ethics and morality.
Well that's fine as a principle, but the article goes on to misrepresent Islam as being comparable to Judaism etc. That's simply false.
The predominant tenor of the Islamic texts is infinitely more hostile and warlike than the predominant tenor of Jewish or Christian (or Buddhist or Hindu or Taoist) texts. That's just a fact that's easy to verify. Buy yourself a translation of Sahih Bukhari and of the Koran and read them.
As Caroline pointed out, the most evil Muslims are the MOST educated ones who honestly DO try to emulate their prophet.
I think as we deal with the problems that Islam poses and push for reform we're going to have to face the differences between Islam and other religions.
For instance, even though the logic of damnation implies that Christians should be highly intolerant (thus safeguarding their children from sin and damnation) Jesus specifically forbade Christians from being intolerant. They are to set a good example, convert the unbelievers with love and turn the other cheek... That set up a dynamic in Christianity where some of the most pious Christians would work limit the excesses of the Church and make common cause with secular people.
In Islam there is absolutely no basis for a universal morality or tolerance - quite the opposite... So our expectations of who we can deal with in Muslim societies has to be inverted. Those who are driven to purity will always be our enemies.
But since Muslim societies do not allow people to leave the religion there are many people who are "Muslim" only in name - and those are the only people who will have any form of ethics or morality in the modern sense.
We will find morality only in those who are not pure and who have a talent for hypocrisy - not among the pure.
...
That was just meant as a for instance. My point is that there are many ways in which Islam is a uniquely horrific religion, and this truth has many consequences for every discussion.
My experience is that striving to avoid offense blinds us so thoroughly that all discussions become useless and we work against our own interests.
Joshua Scholar
...(continued)
As Ali Salem said, Islam can not reform. Instead Islam will be forgotten.
I believe him. Muslims can only learn to live completely comfortably with nonmuslims when "Muslim" becomes merely part of an ethnic identity and the religion has been rejected and forgotten.
J.S.
Democracy, separation of church and state, a free press and capitalism are the answer. Without that, Muslims have no opportunity to change themselves or build alliances outside of their religion or tribes. It won’t happen overnight or be easy but that’s the only way a Muslim can reinterpret their religion peacefully, and gain power, without getting their head cut off.
Separation of church and state will make sure the head of the state doesn’t enforce religious laws, but tribalism allows a Cleric to enforce his will on a community. Capitalism will be the “selective pressure” that counters tribalism. Since the best businesses will be those that hire the best it will require working outside the family and the tribe. Those that stay tribal will fail and lose power. Money will change people’s allegiances and give them the power to be free.
This is going to help law enforcement as well. They need to trust that people outside their tribe, the State, will properly enforce the laws and also be the ONLY one’s who do it. Big business will make sure it’s commodities, (It’s employees) aren’t being harassed by the tribe.
Muslim self-reflection won’t happen until they have the freedom to self reflect.
It’s pretty general but it’s my two cents.
Paul there is no guarantee that even Iraq will meanfully end tibalism nor is there any guarantee that clerics won't be placed completely above the law.
Not that despite publically declaring that Sadr is a murderer (which he most certainly is - and the leader of a gang of thugs), the Iraqi police don't dare arrest him and the government doesn't dare ask for charges to be brought.
Right after the liberation of Iraq I read an Iraqi blogger (a doctor) who said that the local cleric/gang leader was stealing his hospital's supplies to sell in Iran and threatening the hospitals administration. In this case they managed to publically embarass him and his gang into stopping, but they'd been doing this for years...
That's how bad things are in the Middle East. Clerics are often nothing more than thugs. The Shiites think it is their duty to find the most holy cleric and follow his word as law - of course that means that thugish clerics can build little armies of idiots who worship them.
I don't know how it works among Sunnis but the signs are that it's no better.
I guess the question ends up being just how far above the law religion is. Things can devolve to being like Iran or Saudi Arabia.
Joshua Scholar
As an atheist, I consider religion to be a human invention and hence am not surprised that the religious show the same range of evil and hypocritical behaviour as everyone else.
Nevertheless, all religions are not the same.
In the case of christianity, the old testament has been superceded by the new (for all but a few) which has no scriptural support for hatred or violence. In the case of islam, the opposite is the case - not only was the Prophet a man of violence by our standards, but it is not possible for his revelation to be superceded. In various times and places, his examples have been gentled, but in our modern time it appears that a raw, unbridled strain that is capable of psychopathic levels of hatred and violence exists and is growing in numbers. It happens in every place where hatred of non-muslims is taught, and that is in far too many places.
I don't believe that post-Enlightenment christianity is capable of this, and so I don't think the parallels between it and islam are valid.
parallel
Parallel, I think you've put your finger on the relevant dynamic better than Commentariart has.
While he has a point that modern ethics and morality may well have gown up after Judaism, the simple fact is that wherever people are taught that God requires and rewards the slaughter of unbelievers, such slaughter will continue to occur.
And with the exception of small sects, such is taught almost everywhere that Islam exists and there is no sign that Muslims are willing or able to suppress this teaching.
The only protection modern Islam has is a commonly held belief that it's wrong to wage Jihad against your own country (under some conditions), so good British Muslim boys don't blow up London. Instead a few of them show up in Kashmir and volunteer to terrorize the Hindu population.
And of course it's an exchange as a few Muslims from the rest of the world show up to "fight the good fight" in London.
J. S.
Even if M chopped off heads and tortured people, that was the way it was done then. Islam tells its followers 'kill your enemies'.
So what?
Don't we too?
Let's stop this hate tirade against Moslims, which quite frankly reminds us of some rhetorics that were used in other times and against other religions. The results were death and destruction.
You're drumming up for war, Caroline.
"First we take Manhattan, then we take Berlin..."
Remember that war follows Newton's third law. Every action leads to a reaction. So stop being foolish.
Time Out!
Mohammed seems warrior-like in some historical contexts. If one accepts the historical accounts, Mohammed apparently killed people in very violent ways with swords. As someone who uses a sword, I can tell you that probably 85% of all sword fights are likely to end with really horrific deaths. After all, swinging a large sharp piece of steel around hoping to land it on soft tissue appears to do something more than bruise.
If Mohammed married a 6 year old and had sex with her when she was 9, a study of history would indicate that he was a normal healthy male, for his time.
*blink*
Moses and Joshua, according to the Bible committed genocide. Do you think they did this peacefully with leathel injection? How does one destroy entire cities of men and women with a sword? (I'll give you a hint... it probably involved long lines of vanquished foes getting their shoulders and head permanently dislocated.)
Saul and David were both warrior-kings. David raped another mans wife, then had the man killed.
The life of people 500-700-1000-1500 years ago was very different than the life and ideas of people today. We can argue that perhaps the Muslims need to catch up with the times, but any argument that their religious history is more violent than the Jews and by extention the Christians would appear as simple dishonesty, to me.
Christ, poor Jesus... he, according to accounts, appears as a peaceful person. He apparently wanted nothing to do with the governments of this world, he was apparently focused on the Kingdom of God.
I don't think most Christians really follow him... they seem much more like David and Saul and Joshua and Moses, to me.
"Why do Christians get a pass to choose what they'll believe and Muslims don't?"
Commenter, that totally ridiculous line shows a complete lack of understanding, intelligence, etc. on this issue. The problem is not whether or not Christians or Muslims believe/think that their's is the only true religion, the problem is what they DO with those thoughts, in TODAY'S world, not the world of 500 years ago.
And since when do Christians get a free pass? Do you actually read the papers at all?
exhelodrvr,
Thanks for calling me an idiot.
Anyway, my point had nothing to do with whether Christians or Muslims feel that their religion is the one true religion.
My point is that Christians feel comfortable ignoring or accepting the parts of their religion that they want. Gays? Bad. Divorce? Ok!
Similarly, Muslims, as humans, also have this capacity. The Koran tells people to do bad things. So? This does not mean that everyone who thinks of him- or herself as a Muslim will do those bad things, or interpret those passages to mean that they have to do bad things.
Some people seem to think that, while people can read the Bible without trying to follow every word literally (an impossible feat, anyway), people cannot read the Koran without becoming unthinking robots.
By "free pass", I meant just this: that some of my readers want to believe that while Christians are free to interpret the Bible as they wish, Muslims cna only interpret it as they have decided that Muslims should interpret it.
Though you seem to believe that Christians are being persecuted. In a country where they form the majority. And religious conservatives control the White House and Congress. If you want, you can be my resident Christians-are-being-persecuted nut.
Oh, I understand now. You are finding an equivalence between Christians who dislike gay marriage and Muslims who kill people because they are Westerners. Sorry for misunderstanding you.
Tatter: "Even if M chopped off heads and tortured people, that was the way it was done then. Islam tells its followers 'kill your enemies'."
Mo started Islam Tatter - so your point makes no sense whatsoever.
Michael asked what was my point in listing those things that Muhammad did. I listed them in response to Tatter stating that Mo wasn't any different than other people of that time. This is utterly unbelievable to me. A guy beheads 700 or 800 people, cuts off limbs, gouges out eyes, lights fire on people's chests and then invents a new religion, claiming to be the final conduit of God's message to mankind, telling people to follow his example as the most perfect human being and spread Islam, the religion that he, this psychopath, created. Then, lo and behold, 1400 years later people are flying airplanes into buildings, chopping off heads, still cutting off limbs and what is the response? Islam has nothing to do with it! The terrorists are an aberration! Or - Muhammed wasn't unusual for the times (Ummm - Jesus lived 600 years earlier and did no such thing so this is a completely lame argument). Or - Stop saying stuff like that or YOU will be responsible for starting a war!. (oh well - Thanks Tatter!) Or the standard atheist response - well all religions are nonsense. Or, I’ve known plenty of nice muslims. We have coffee together. So really, keep the borders open to Muslim immigration. There won’t be any problem 40 years from now. Trust me! My college roommate was a Muslim! Really great guy!
If there’s one thing westerners are perfectly entitled to do, it is to attack faith on rational grounds. No one thinks anything whatsoever of attacking creationism and even ridiculing the idea. For some odd reason, people seem to think that if pointing to evolution might cause a Christian to lose faith, well too damn bad for him. The western assumption appears to be that getting at truth is more important than protecting people’s feelings. One consequence of the rational assault on Christianity is that literally millions of westerners have given up their faith. Now along comes a bunch of folks claiming that a mass murdering, torturing, lying, stealing man was the final prophet of God’s word – that supercedes all other prophets and is the most perfect human being to emulate – and a bunch of folks following exactly that prophet’s example, plan to nuke the west and murder as many of us as possible and what do westerners do? Nothing. Nada. Aside from a few people, westerners refuse to rationally attack Islam at its very core – it’s prophet. “I know nice Muslims. Be nice. Don’t hurt anyone’s feelings. Wear white gloves at Gitmo while handling the Holy Koran!” This is simply unbelievable to me. Most westerners know nothing about Muhammad. They listen to the taqiyyah and they’re converting to Islam to fill a “void” left by leaving Christianity. Meanwhile, if confronted directly, Islam as a religion (whose very validity depends on the credibility of Muhammad himself) doesn’t pass the laugh test. It can’t possibly survive a rational assault. And that’s ultimately the most humane approach to solving the whole problem in the long run.
Caroline
exhelodrvr,
You are finding an equivalence between Christians who dislike gay marriage and Muslims who kill people because they are Westerners.
Do you actually understand language? I mean when people say words, do they fit together in your head to form complete ideas? If not, you may need to seek professional help.
Let's try to make the argumnet more clear for the poor exhelodrvr.
Christians can pick and choose what they want from the Bible. Some of them actively campaign against any legal framework for gays, yet support the legal framework for divorce (though both are equally condemned in the Bible). They can accept "love thy neighbor" when its easy, and kill for their country when its not.
Muslims (being humans, just like Christians) can also pick and choose what to accept from their Holy Book. They can accept jihad, or not. They can accept an abusive, totalitarian religious view, or not.
This has not been an argument of moral equivalency. It's an argument about how human brians work. Mosbunall religious people accept what they want to hear and don't accept what they don't want to hear. To believe that all muslims are evil jihad supporting deomns, would be akin to believing that all Christians are raving anti-gay nutjobs.
Is that more clear or do we need to stick to one-syllable words?
Caroline,
I challenge you to show me any religion that could stand any rational assult.
Is it more rational to believe that God wanted the Jews to commit genocide against all Cannan?
Is it rational to believe that any being was born of a virgin?
Is it rational to believe that someone could return to life after their body had decomposed for three days?
Is it rational to believe that the entire planet was covered by a flood?
Is it rational to believe that some great invisible being spoke directly to 40some-odd men and they dictated his words, got a quick edit from the Nicean council and bam, we have the Word of God?
Belief and Faith cannot be rationally explained, unless we do so in a psychological context (people are afraid of the future so they make up bizzare stuff to feel better).
To take the axe of rational thought to Islam, decapitates all religion.
Not something I'm against, mind you. ;-)
"Ah, I said, but your God does ask such things of his believers. He told Abraham to kill Isaac - so you know that God orders those who have faith in Him to kill innocent people."
Two points: "does" implies now - there's nothing on record anywhere (in Christian tradition) that has God doing any such thing since early on in the Old Testament.
Second, the command to Abraham can be seen as a test of his faith - after all, Isaac was not sacrificed. A few people think the command came not from God, but from the devil, and God stepped in at the last minute to set Abraham straight.
(On the other hand, there was hardly a single other person in all Israel who was more faithful than Abraham, so it seems odd God would need to test him. Hence the alternate theory.)
The difference between us and Islam is that we have an Old and a New Testament. The New Testament teaches love and redemption. Period. Look up Christ's answer to the question, "What is the greatest commandment". The Koran has no such division. It's all one.
Obviously, any religion is subject to its follower's misinterpretations. Our misinterpretations (speaking about today) lead only to foolishness, while theirs lead to deaths and subjugation.
Actually, no, exhelodrvr, that is neither what I wrote nor what I meant.
This is not about finding equivalence in the choices made by Christians and Muslims. This is about the equivalence of having the choice in the first place.
No religion is good or bad. People are good or bad. People sometimes explain their good behavior through religion. People sometimes justify their bad behavior through religion.
My point, as I've repeated endlessly, is that simply because Religious Text A says "Do This" and some people do this, does not mean that other people do not do this, or do a different version of this, or that readers of Religious Text B must follow the line "Do That" because some followers of Religious Text A do this.
Get it? People have choices. Some people here want to explain radical Islam by claiming that because the Koran says "Do This", well, of course Muslims will all do this! But the line "Do This" does not necessitate Muslims to do this any more than the Biblical line "Do That" necessitates Christians to do that.
Get it? The Koran is a book, not operating software.
I thoroughly enjoyed your post "Religion and Ethics." I have the same complaint where Christians are free to pick and choose parts of the Bible that they wish to follow where Muslims are somehow not allowed to do the same. Nonsense.
If people want to believe in 2000 year-old fairy tales that's fine with me, but why do people endlessly argue that their fairy tales are better than others' fairy tales, or that the others' are evil somehow? Strange.
Some of my closest friends are Christians and some are Muslims - and none of them, as far as I know, want to cut off anyone's head, at least not on religious grounds. They are all caring, decent human beings.
If I were an Iraqi Muslim and I read this comments section and other comments sections, I would think twice about how much Americans really cared about me after reading some of these posts - WOW! Islam = Evil? Can religion really cause someone to become evil? I don't think so, it's a personal choice to do evil things - religion would only be an excuse for it. People choose - they are not robots.
Caroline,
I guess the problem goes something like this:
"Mohammed did bad things, and founded a religion. Now, 1400 years later, followers of that religion are doing many of the same bad things. Therefore, the explanation for modern bad things is past bad things and the religion is the continuity between them."
The fault with this is the notion that there is a continuity between Mohammed and modern terrorists, and that continuity is Islam.
If this is the case - if the cause is Factor X - and lots of other people have Factor X, wouldn't you expect all of them to behave in a similar way?
In other words, doesn't this imply a monolithic, contiguous Islam from the prophet to now, instead of the multitude of cultures, nations, states, governments, sects, heresies, and what not, that Islam has produced?
The history of Islam, like the history of anything else, is largely the history of common people - farmers, laborers, artisans, craft people, merchants, and the like. These people lived, and live, lives pretty much like most people everywhere.
Islamic states have frequently fought with each other and with other peoples - sort of like, you know, Christian states.
I just can't reconcile the logic behind your argument - that because some Muslims did bad things, then the cause must be Islam, when there are Muslims who don't do bad things and non-Muslims who do bad things. Radical Islamic violence is certainly shaped by Islam - but radical Christian violence is shaped by Christianity. Neither is caused by their religion.
Tosk: "To take the axe of rational thought to Islam, decapitates all religion.
Not something I'm against, mind you. ;-)"
By all means - have at it! Just don't spare Islam, something that far too many westerners are willing to do. If you've ever read the testimonials at faithfreedom.org - you'd be amazed at how many Muslims know nothing at all about Muhammad and when they find out - they realize that Islam is false. Then they leave it. (or they become closet apostates). One writer at faithfreedom.org estimated that if just a few very prominent Muslims gave up their faith publicly, it could lead to the floodgates of apostasy opening.
Re the specific points you raised - you'll have to ask Jews about the Old testament. I know nothing about it. Re Christianity - in our previous conversations, I think I've made it clear that I think that Jesus was an enlightened human being and that the death and resurrection is a metaphor for enlightenment and so no - I don't believe in literal resurrection. You'll have to ask a real Christian about those things. But I will also say - there is absolutely no moral equivalence between Christianity and Islam. They're total opposites. One might hope that people were good enough to be more like Jesus but we better pray that people DO NOT emulate Muhammed! Therefore, no moral equivalence whatsoever.
Caroline
Now along comes a bunch of folks claiming that a mass murdering, torturing, lying, stealing man was the final prophet of God’s word – that supercedes all other prophets and is the most perfect human being to emulate – and a bunch of folks following exactly that prophet’s example, plan to nuke the west and murder as many of us as possible and what do westerners do? Nothing. Nada.
To put it in perspective: The Secularists are doing their best using the arguments that have worked for them in the past vs. Christianity.
What they're missing, maybe, is that Islam might require a different set of responses.
Secularism didn't just magically triumph overnight & the society of free inquiry we now enjoy didn't immeditaely emerge victorious within a generation. It was something built up, through the Renaissance, the Enlightenment, Darwin's Evolutionary theory [and the attendant misapplications of that throughout time], up to the present day of uneasy tolerance & de facto recognition of separable spheres.
Secularists need to reflect that a good portion of the Islamic world bypassed these developments. We need to revisit very old arguments with them, on their terms, and over the log haul to get them approaching the same sense of modernity we enjoy. I do wonder if they'll ever really catch up.
Some of them actively campaign against any legal framework for gays, yet support the legal framework for divorce (though both are equally condemned in the Bible).
True, but there's also the case that these are separable in some ways.
Keep in mind that the argument vs. Gays is primarily concerned with gay marriage as marriage. There are fewer who object to civil unions.
The reasoning is that gay marriage as marriage impinges upon the sacraments of the Church while civil unions are in the legal sphere.
The legal sphere can be altered piece-meal for accomodation of exceptions. As an example, you can kill in self-defense.
The Religious sphere cannot be altered in such a way without altering the integrity of the entirety. Ie: if you kill in self-defense, that's still killing, still a sin.
Likewise for divorce. Protestant churches do indeed accept them - by recognising what the state has performed, not by performing them themselves. The RCs do not, nor do the orthodox.
Hypocrisy? Possibly. Picking & choosing? Not precisely.
To the question: Do Muslims do the same? Yes, they do. In fact, there's at least one verse in the Koran condemning those who do so. Imams frequently take their followers to task for it as well. The job of an Imam is essentially enforcement/interpretation of orthodoxy, not leading prayers.
Commenter - see my 9:42pm post. Read the article posted there.(Is islam a religion of peace). I don't think I could make it more clear.
Urthshu - yes - I agree re revisiting old arguments with Muslims. But those kinds of debates are only taking place on very obscure internet forums. When they find their way to the light of day, we might see some progress. E.G. - Robert Spencer has repeatedly asked moderate Muslims to come forward and address the place of jihad in Islam. He wants them to refute the theological arguments of the extremists. Apparently they cannot. Or at least I haven't seen them do it yet.
In the meantime, until we know whether islam can be reformed, or the concept of jihad rejected on theological grounds, or until we see enough people turning away from Islam on rational grounds, how is it not suicidal to keep the doors of the west open to unlimited Muslim immigration? It isn't good enough to say that all religions are the same or that I know plenty of peaceful Muslims and therefore there isn't anything to worry about. It's just flat out irresponsible.
Caroline
Preaching to the choir, Caroline, in my case at least. You're asking commonsense questions - and that indivdual exception angle ['I know some muslims'] is yea 'bout as convincing to me as the ole 'some of my best friends are black' canard to justify inexcusable behavior on the part of the speaker.
There's been a lot of throwing around the gay issue & I've been trying to present the case 'cause its really a heated & confusing one. I'll leave off responding to it at this point, since its not getting through. But, for interest, this gay Catholic man runs a very good blog addressing it & related issues. Do give it a read.
Caroline,
I just took a look at the article to which you linked, and I can't help but still feel frustrated.
Wood believes that Islam is suffering from "Multiple Personality Disorder" because some Muslims do one thing and other Muslims do another.
Isn't that, you know, what Christians do?
Wood offers two passages from the Koran, one which states that "there is no compulsion in religion" and another which states that Muslims should fight those who do not believe in Allah.
As I've said before, it is as impossible to be a "pure" Muslim as it is to be a "pure" Christian. Just as some Christians can choose to believe that "Christ is love" while others can believe that "God hates fags", some Muslims can believe that there is no compulsion in religion while others can believe that they have to murder people in the name of God.
Let's look at another religion, Hinduism. Hinduism started as the religion of a conquering people, introducing such wonderful concepts as the caste system in order to institutionalize the oppression of the conquered peoples. Yet Hinduism went on to become a religion of almost total nonviolence. And yet! There is now the Hinduvata movement which seems to believe that it is ok to burn innocent people alive in the name of a religion which preaches total nonviolence.
In other words, a religion is only what an individual believer does with it, and nothing more.
The Koran can say "accept others" and it can say "kill others". Which is it? Well, both, and neither. For some it is one, for others, it's the second. There is no one Islam, there is no pure Islam, and even if historical Islam was one way, this does not mean that modern Islam need be that way.
I say, welcome Muslims. Incorporating and assimilating them into our culture is one of the best things that can happen to a lot of them, and hence, to us. The point of telling the story about my Muslim roommate was this: here was a person who said "I am a Muslim" but who, with a few minor exceptions, acted exactly like someone who said "I am a Christian". In fact, neither acted anything like a Muslim or Christian in the 19th, 18th, 17th, 16th, 15th, 14th, whatever century. They acted, amazingly enough, like typical 21st century American college kids.
Commentariat - I guess you overlooked this line from the article:
"A similar phenomenon occurs in the world today. When Muslims are in the minority (as they are in America) the message is always “Let us live in peace with one another, for Islam is a religion of tolerance and understanding.” Then, once Islam has spread throughout the country, the message suddenly changes to “Anyone who stands against the Prophet is worthy of death!”"
And that has always been Islam's history. Yet you feel quite comfortable ignoring it because people can cherry-pick from the book. Sigh.
Caroline
Great - after all that I just noticed that Totten linked to this thread. It wasn't my intention to derail it. Rather, I was picking up a discussion from a previous thread that ticked Commentariat off. My apologies. I thought this was an obscure little blog :-)
Caroline
"There is no such thing as a religion of peace."
I disagree. Theravada Buddhists refuse to carry or use any weapon or join any military force. Their belief in nonviolence is so strict as to not even defend themselves in a violent confrontation. They do not eat animals for these same reasons. There are other religions as well, even western religious sects, that are peaceful. When its against your religion to touch a gun, I think that would qualify as "peaceful"
Commenter,
You write:
"And just as every Christian chooses what to believe and what to reject from the Bible, every Muslim chooses what to believe and what to reject from the Koran" and then pretend that you are not drawing an equivalence between the Islamic beliefs that lead to the actual horrific actions by Muslims, and the Christian beliefs that lead to ... some hypothetical scenario? You are being extremely disingenuous here. Also extremely inaccurate, since you base most of your logic (as pointed out by others) on what happened in the Old Testament. (At that point, it wasn't even Christianity yet.)
exhelodrvr,
Again, no, I am not equating the decisions made, though there are clearly Christians who choose to murder in the name of God (such as Eric Rudolph or the Spanish Inquisition - these are Christians who have chosen to interpret the Bible in the most horrible way imaginable).
What I am trying to establish is that readers of Religious Text A can interpret the text any way they want, and do, and if they can ignore central tenents or interpret them into meaninglessness ("thou shalt not kill"), then why can't readers of Religious Text B do the same?
Last time I checked, the Old Testament was still part of the Bible, and even if a great deal of it has been superceded by the New Testament, this does not change the fact that God, the same God last time I checked, used to order the Israelites to kill pregnant women. Or did God stop being God?
And even if God isn't God, then simply change everything I've said about Christians and replace it with "Jews", and in the place of Eric Rudolph, place the Jewish settlers who were recently convicted of murder and attempting to blow up little girls.
In other words, the characters in this play can be played by any actor.
But, so what if it's from the Old Testament? God ordered Abraham to kill his son. So, God is a son-killing-orderer. Is, you ask? Yes, God does, in the present tense, order this sort of thing, because what's a few thousand years to God? But the point, and let me make this crystal clear, is not whether there's a statute of limitations on this, but rather the following:
It is a tremendous act of hubris to claim to know the mind of God. Yet that's exactly what people who say "my God would never do something terrible" are claiming - to know the mind of God. Moreover, they claim this despite the incontrovertable proof - Abraham and Isaac - that God has ordered this before.
What do I conclude? That the ethics around this God have changed. People no longer want to believe in a God who orders this sort of thing, so they don't - even though their God is, according to the very holy words in the very Holy Bible, the sort of God who orders this sort of thing. The book hasn't changed, but the ethics have.
John Wenning,
I agree. Though I am no longer a member, Jehovah's Wittnesses practice a peaceful (though dogmatic) version of Christianity. In fact, they were killed by the thousands in German concentration camps, in the USSR, numerous african nations, China and some even in the US because they refused to fight in a war. They don't own personal weapons and even violent games or movies are frowned upon and would warrent a visit from the Elders.
Heck, my parents even condemed my historical rapier training.
Caroline,
By all means - have at it! Just don't spare Islam, something that far too many westerners are willing to do. If you've ever read the testimonials at faithfreedom.org - you'd be amazed at how many Muslims know nothing at all about Muhammad and when they find out - they realize that Islam is false. Then they leave it.
I wouldn't spare Islam. I think Islam and Christianity are currently tied for the most dogmatic, and bloody religion in history award.
I think its great that sombunall Muslims wake up when someone points out that their religion has serious flaws when looked at rationally. I wish Christians could be as honest.
No religion can stand to rational examination. Faith, by defination is irrational. Belief, without hard evidence is irrational. If a Christian honestly examined his or her faith under the light of reason, they would expose it for a pack of jabberwocky. The same goes for Islam. The same goes for New Age and any other Enlightenment/Transenedntal hogwash some people believe.
However, this isn't because of the ideas or the stories or the metaphors of the religion. It's not because of the words in the book, or the morals or the ethics. The problem with Radical Islam and Fundamental Christianity is Dogma.
When Dogma enters the brain, all rational thought leaves.
Set your sights on the eradication of Dogma and when accomplished, every radical sect, every cult that spouts inspiration from God, every scientific theory that gets pushed as TRUTH, (in short every religion) will lie dead and buried and humans will at last be free to think for themselves.
But, its better to rail against Islam... after all they're the current symptom.
some hypothetical scenario? You are being extremely disingenuous here.
Hrmmm, Inquisition? Salem Witch Trials? Crusades?
http://newswww.bbc.net.uk/1/hi/uk/4098172.stm
Or just the other day in England.
(Oh I forgot, those weren't REAL Christians... they were fakes.. but the jihadists are the REAL Islamics...)
Ratatosk: “Set your sights on the eradication of Dogma and when accomplished, every radical sect, every cult that spouts inspiration from God, every scientific theory that gets pushed as TRUTH, (in short every religion) will lie dead and buried and humans will at last be free to think for themselves.”
Except, perhaps, those who seek truth within a religious tradition. Your JW experience certainly has left you bitter, hasn’t it?
Regarding pacifism: yes there are strongly pacifist traditions, in Buddhism and Christianity. Quakers (The Society of Friends) are strongly Pacifist and have long been leaders in social justice. They were leaders in the abolitionist movement in 18th century Britain. And Richard Nixon was a Quaker.
I don’t agree with Commenter that religion is just a smorgasbord where you pick and choose whatever beliefs suit your fancy. But it is true that seemingly bloodthirsty doctrines can yield peaceful believers, and pacifist doctrines can produce warlike presidents.
You are very clearly taking this issue out of context; there is a very clear demarcation between the Old and the New Testament. This is in the New Testament writings itself (i.e. reference when Christ was asked what the most important law was, or when he was asked what went to Caesar and what went to God.) It is also demonstrated in the manner in which THE VAST MAJORITY of Christians in TODAY's world view the confluence of religion, politics, and the use of force to implement one's religious beliefs. You will not find more than a very, very tiny fraction of Christians who feel that the Crusades were an appropriate method of spreading the Word, and I would be surprised to find even a single Catholic of today who agrees with the methods of the Inquisition. The same is not at all true of today's Islam. Yet you keep trying to draw parallels.
Commentariat – as I indicated earlier – I picked up this discussion from the previous thread and was quite surprised to notice way late in the game that Totten had linked to it. I should have noticed that but so many posters are the usual suspects that I didn’t. Guess your humble blog ain’t so obscure any more!
Anyway – the reason I ranted so heavily about the need for westerners to discuss this stuff is precisely because you warned me to cut it out in your comments section (previous thread). A veiled warning I’ve gotten from Totten in the past BTW,(for reasons I do understand). And I continued on in this thread because I think it is very important to discuss indeed.
But now – with a clearer head I am rereading your current post (as opposed to treating it as part of a previous conversation) and so I will approach it afresh (and no doubt will echo many of the thoughts already expressed by other posters):
“Imagine if an American general in Iraq were to order his troops to capture a city and slaughter all of the men and boys in the city, as well as all non-virginal women, including all pregnant women, with the troops free to do with the virginal girls as they wished. There would very likely be a great deal of outrage on the part of the entire world that such a terrible thing had taken place. Now, imagine if the American general, in responding to this outrage and the inevitable court marshal, said something like "I did it because God commanded me to do it, and as a faithful Christian, I simply carried out his command".”
“Imagine” is right. Cite the relevant Christian texts or its pure imagination. Do you want to reverse that to Islam – where imagination plays no part? Kill the infidels? Take the women captives as slaves? Rape them as you wish? Behead the males?
“This probably wouldn't sway very many people to the general's side, would it? (If you think it would, I'm eager to hear from you too.) Most people would probably be disgusted and outraged, not just by the general's actions but also by his invocation of the most holy God in defense of his terrible act”
You have evidently missed the enormous market for jihadi videotapes both in the ME and in Europe, in which is displayed, in gruesome detail, the beheadings of the infidels (or their collaborators) captured in Iraq. Oh – and in case you missed it – the beheaders are shouting “Allah Akhbar!! while they do it.
“After all, when the Israelites, those with whom God Almighty formed a covenant naming them as His chosen people, were conquering the Holy Land from the Philistines, God frequently ordered His chosen people to conquer cities and slaughter all the men, boys, and non-virginal women - including the pregnant ones - and to enslave the virginal girls.”
Sorry – as many posters have pointed out – that’s Old Testament. You’re gonna have to ask that question of the people who adopt the Old Testament as their sacred religious text. You’re not talking to Christians, for whom the New testament takes precedence. (the opposite by the way of Islam – for whom the later violent Medina texts take precedence over the more peaceful and older Meccan verses – that’s the concept of “abrogation”).
“Smith argued that religion followed ethics, and not the other way around.”
As someone else IIRC asked – where does Smith think “ethics” comes from? Seriously – I’m curious. I haven’t read him and apparently you have, so I really do want to know. Are ethics self-evident? Or did Smith figure this out after having a particular religion in front of him that he could criticize but which inadvertently transmitted to him the subtle ethical sense that he now embraces (while rejecting of course, the “religion” that transmitted it to him personally?)
“Either people have gotten much better at understanding the Bible, or ethics are divorced from religion.”
Again – you’re failing to make a distinction between Old and New testament. Christians follow the New Testament. If ethics follow from the NT – does that have anything to do with the example of Jesus?
“Ah, I said, but your God does ask such things of his believers. He told Abraham to kill Isaac - so you know that God orders those who have faith in Him to kill innocent people.”
Again – OT – take it up with OT adherents, not with Christians.
“the problem is with Islam itself, that violent jihad is integral to Islam and that Islam is, structurally, designed to produce the sort of conflict we are currently fighting:
Got it? Straight out of the Koran. Straight from the "prophet's" mouth. But no - the Koran has nothing to do with it at all. It's all just one big misunderstanding on the part of a tiny minority of extremists who have hijacked the religion of peace.”
Whoops – that’s me you're quoting from the previous thread. I stand by it. There’s a difference between “necessary” and “sufficient” causes. “Kill the infidels” is a necessary ingredient but not sufficient. (I think that’s the way that logical argument goes but I’m open to correction).
(Gonna continue with a new post so as not to exceeed any posting limits)
Caroline
“Islam is not a religion of peace. There is no such thing as a religion of peace.”
A previous poster called you on that one. Buddhism is a religion of peace. Is new testament Christianity a ROP? I don’t recall Jesus advocating killing anyone. I recall him telling people to turn the other cheek.
“every Muslim chooses what to believe and what to reject from the Koran. And every single one of them believes that he or she has stumbled across the one true interpretation of those texts. Many Christians have chosen to ignore the violent, wrathful God who ordered those conquests and murders, or the God who ordered Abraham to kill his only son.”
Someone’s gonna have to explain very clearly to me the difference between NT Christianity and Christian adherents of the OT biblical traditions. Seriously. I don’t care if I’m ignorant about these things. Which Christians embrace the OT? Which don’t? I know that Jews are adherents of the OT – but beyond that I know very little about Judaism. And someone adhering to Judaism is gonna have to step up to the plate here.
“how many people have been killed in the name of a God who ordered his followers not to kill? One would think that the commandment - "thou shall not kill" - is pretty straightforward.”
Fair enough – but there’s a major difference between failing to do something “ideal” prescribed by a religion ( and risking hell for failing to do it) vs. killing someone in cold blood BECAUSE your religion prescribes it – and gaining paradise for doing so. And – if you see no difference – wheregoes Smith’s notion of ethics? If you think it’s unethical to murder people, how do you cast a moral equivalence between the 2 religious traditions? One promises hell for people who kill – the other promises heaven for people who kill. If that doesn’t belong under your WTF category, what does?
Caroline
(damn your posts are long Commentariat. I will slug on in a minute)..
slugging on...
“One would think that the commandment - "thou shall not kill" - is pretty straightforward. No, some will tell you - it's not "thou shall not kill", it's "thou shall not murder", it's ok to kill as long as the person deserves it - and the speaker is usually the one qualified to make the decision as to who deserves it. If a line as simple as "thou shall not kill" is so open to interpretation - and so easily ignored - then what hope do we have for the rest of these texts?”
Well – in response to that Q, I would refer you to a previous thread of yours in which Tatter and I discussed that. You’re conflating killing in self-defense with unnecessaary killing. That’s admittedly a very difficult subject. But as I argued, if people NEVER killed other people, the obvious outcome would be that good people would immediately be overcome by bad people. That’s pretty obvious. (and I haven't completely rsolved in my own mind whether or not that's OK) But then of course – that immediately raises the issue that the Koran says the same thing. It is permissable to kill in self-defense only. In response to that – I would say it’s very important to examine the actual historical facts of Muhammad himself. Did he only kill in self-defense? Examine it! And of course once you open that can of worms you’re gonna have to look seriously at the reasons real Muslims give for killing infidels in today’s world. It’s self-defense! Well – read up on that and address it head on is all I can say cause you’re touching on a very very important theological issue there that must be addressed. And by all means westerners should address it. It lies at the very heart of much of our troubles.
Now you bring up homosexuality. It’s condemned by the Bible. Until you show me NT readings that endorse killing homosexuals, I’m going to totally ignore that. (But as an aside, you might pause to note the actual fate of known homosexuals in Muslim countries, even though they are rampant clost homosexuals).
“Now that the Pope has spoken, let only those Catholics who are without similar sin cast stones on gay marriage.”
Please – nobody is stoning Andrew Sullivan and he knows it. That’s why he lives in the west and not the Middle East.
“And that's just it - homosexuality is forbidden by the Bible, but so is divorce. Many Christians condemn homosexuals, citing the Bible as reason, but many continue to get divorces (I've read that, by religious group in America, the highest divorce rate is among Evangelicals).”
Sure sure sure. People are hypocrites. People aren’t perfect. Muhammed solved the problem of divorce by permitting men to say “I divorce you 3 times”. He solved the problem of lust ( oh – that would be male lust by the way) by allowing men to have 4 wives (whoops – but being the prophet himself – he was exempt from that rule and could have up to 20) and by allowing “temporary marriages” for as little as 24 hours so his (would that be male?) followers could get it on and still feel virtuous in the morning. Puleease!!!!! This is a joke! You have no grounds whatsoever to be calling western Christians hypocrites on this score. Unless you're comparing them to an impossible moral standard (Hmmmm? Where have I seen that concept before? Somewhere in the recent news?) which you completely dismiss when non-westerners are involved.
Caroline....cont
“the Bible condemns both homosexuality and divorce, but many Christians condemn one and do the other. These Christians have chosen that some words in the Bible - those about divorce - are unimportant, irrelevant, acceptable to ignore, while others - those about homosexuality - must be adhered to.”
Sure – whatever – people are imperfect. Brilliant Mo solved that problem, as I indicated above. So imperfect Christians are hypocrites and sinners while Muslim males have free license in their prophet’s example to treat women like dirt with moral impunity. And they do. Terrific. At least they aren’t hypocrites! Shitty treatment of women as cattle is perfectly sanctioned in the Koran. Hoorah!! Oops – but what about the women? If they get pregnant even when raped – they can be stoned to death! I feel so much better now about the lack of hypocricy. How refreshing! (IIRC Jesus said Whoever hasn’t sinned – throw the first stone. Remind me please what Muhammad said?)
“In other words, there are Muslims who claim to have the one true interpretation of the Koran, and who claim that the Koran is the only guide for life, yet they make up rules and punishments which are nowhere to be found in the Koran.”
I’m with you there about the dress. If that doesn’t come from the Koran – terrific.
“Just as Christians interpret the Bible in ways that suit their needs and desires, so do Muslims. The Bible forbids murder - yet countless people have been killed, whether by the Inquisition, the Wars of Reformation, or Charlemagne's conversion of the Saxons”
Let someone else apologize for the Catholic Church. I won’t.
“The Koran forbids the murder of innocent people, the killing of women and children, and the mutilation of one's enemies - yet al Qaeda has no problem doing any of these things in the name of Allah.”
And the Koran also clearly endorses the same - on the basis of the example and word of Islam’s prophet, Muhammad – the final conduit and messenger of God’s sacred message to mankind – the most perfect human being to be emulated. His word trumps every previous prophet. And even more important – his later Medina violent revelations (when he was in a position of power) trump (or “abrogate”) his previous Meccan peaceful revelations when he was powerless. (and if you live in an Islamic country you could be KILLED for calling him a murdererer. In Australia now you can be jailed for citing Islamic texts that reveal who he was, and the recent hate speech laws indicate that continental Europe may well be heading in the same direction.) Muhammed is clearly the inspiration for bin Laden and Zarqawi and all the others. And many many people are so deathly afraid of the message Muhammed brought to mankind that they will turn a blind eye when someone else comes to kill YOU (you're an atheist - I could pass as a "people of the book"). They will even privately donate money to folks who will kill you, in order to contribute secretly to the jihad, because Muhammed insures them a place in heaven for doing so. Do you understand that Commentariat? No – I don’t think so. I’m sorry but I’m not buying your post. You’re gonna have to do a whole lot better than that to set my mind at ease about the fact that the west has opened its borders to unlimited Muslim immigration. (There’s nothing incidentally that you or anyone else can do to set my mind at ease about the fact that the obviously committed jihadists plan to kill as many of us as they can. We already know about that, though.) And you know what? I'm not going to apologize about my concerns, even if people call me an "Islamophobe", or find the notion distasteful that their comments section could come to resemble that boogeyman "LGF". I don't have children. I'll be dead in 20 years (especially if I keep smoking as heavily as I do). But come on - we westerners most certainly have a right, if not an outright obligation to our descendents (as a 'people of the book', I even feel that obligation to you Commenter :-)- to talk openly about these things - to be confrontational about these things, to demand hard answers (as opposed to the pablum of taqiyyah that westerners are so obviously fed), to try to walk a fine line between naivete' and suspicion - don't we?
Caroline
Commenter, there's another aspect that hasn't been touched on, AFAIK when you point to bloodthirsty episodes from the Old Testament and compare them to the Koran.
The Old Testament was composed by different authors over many centuries. The books of the OT are also of different types. Some OT books, like parts of the Pentateuch, and Kings and Chronicles are largely historical. It is in these historical books that most of the "bloodthirsty" aspects of the Old Testament occur. Other books, like Isaiah and the other prophets, are written by one or a few people and claim to speak the revealed word of God. Rather than compare the Koran to the entire Old Testament, it would be more accurate to compare the Koran to the books of Isaiah or Ezekiel.
And here I reluctantly concede that Caroline has a point. To the best of my knowledge the prophetic books of the OT do not contain calls to violence like the Koran is alleged to contain. (I tried to read the Koran once many years ago but my eyes glazed over, so I can't claim first-hand knowledge of it.)
That being said, I think our best hope of peace is in encouraging and challenging Muslims to live up to the better parts of their tradition, rather than by denouncing their entire tradition. After all, we tune out their criticisms when they call us "The Great Satan".
Oh and Caroline? Take a Valium. You make some good points, but your vitriol makes me less inclined to listen to you, not more. And to be honest I just quickly skimmed most of your last several articles.
Think haiku, Caroline. Think of a finger pointing to the moon. Too many rings and jewels on the finger will draw attention away from the moon.
vinoveritas,
Except, perhaps, those who seek truth within a religious tradition. Your JW experience certainly has left you bitter, hasn’t it?
Alas, you completely miss what I said. Did I say that one should do away with all beliefs, or all religious ideas or traditions? No. I said that we need to remove Dogma; the certainity that any idea, be it religious, philosophical, political or scientific, is TRUE.
Anyone should be permitted to entertain the most sensible or most foolish ideas that they can find. However, when they cease to recoginize that the ideas are just that (ideas), then Dogma may enter the brain.
Scientists who KNOW that we got here through evolution are just as lost to Dogma as the Christian who KNOWS that God made the earth in 6 days. Neither one looks critically at their belief, they simply believe. It is this mindset that fuels the partisan shitstorm that seems to hover over DC these days. It's the same BS that leads Muslim men to think that blowing up oneself and as many other humans as possible is in line with Gods Will. It's the same crap that fuels every cult.
Beliefs are fine, as long as their never mistaken for facts. Religious traditions are fine, as long as their never mistaken as the ONE AND ONLY POSSIBLE TRUTH.
As for my experience with JW's, I'm not bitter. They keep their Dogma to themselves, they work very hard to make sure that only willing participants fill up on their TRUTH. Which is more than I can say for other dogmatic groups.
>>"As far as I’m concerned, as an atheist, you’re all a bunch of nuts, but this strikes me as painfully bigoted."
The author seems a little confused. Bigoted? So what? The author apparently thinks that bigotry is painful, but why? He has no basis for this value judgment. His "ethics" are all in his imagination. As an atheist, how can he justify "ethics" of any kind. He has no holy book to motivate them, no prophet who proclaimed them. How can an atheist expect us to take such subjective judgments seriously. How can a system of "ethics" be based on nothing?
One wonders how all of these "Oh pay no heed to that crap, it's OThristians justify 2 Timothy 3:16.
"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,"
"Everything in the Scriptures is God's Word. All of it is useful for teaching and helping people and for correcting them and showing them how to live."
"Every scripture [is] divinely inspired, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for correction, for instruction in righteousness;"
Oh wait, thats every scripture except the Hebrew Scriptures... and the gnostic ones... and the apocrypha... and any others that we don't particularly care for.
It always astonishes me that so many Christians pcik and choose their holy scriptures. The God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, YHVH, I AM, Jehovah, whatever you want to call him... is the same God that Jesus prayed to in the Garden, the night before he died. The God whose temple he cleansed and called his "Father" is the same deity that commanded the Isrealites to commit genocide.
You can make up whatever spiritual beliefs you want to in your head. You can choose to ignore the bits you don't like. But then, thats the whole point of The Commenters post. Just as Caroline can decide that Jesus' Death and Ressurection is a metaphor, and that the Old Testament is simply a useful reference on Jewish history... Muslims can also decide that Mohammed said some good things and some stupid things.
Unless of course, you assume that the western mind is more highly evolved in matters of thought, logic and rationale.
Tosk: "Just as Caroline can decide that Jesus' Death and Ressurection is a metaphor, and that the Old Testament is simply a useful reference on Jewish history... Muslims can also decide that Mohammed said some good things and some stupid things. Unless of course, you assume that the western mind is more highly evolved in matters of thought, logic and rationale."
Yeah Tosk - I think the western mind is in many respects more highly evolved on these matters ("matters of thought, logic and rationale") - but most importantly of all - more evolved in our freedom to question all of these things. More evolved in the fact that you have the right to call it all "dogma". More evolved in the fact that I can posit that Jesus's death and resurrection is a "metaphor". But when I say that the western mind is more evolved in these things than the "Muslim mind" - you imagine that to be a racial statement. I call bullshit on that. "Muslim" isn't a race. It's a belief system to which people of all races adhere (including caucasian peoples in the west). So that racist stuff is bullshit as far as I'm concerned.
In fact, the way I see it - you're the racist. You're the one creating a division between brown-skinned and white skinned people. My own most personal beliefs have been most influenced by brown-skinned people (first Jesus - brown-skinned was he not?) and subsequently by people of Indian racial extraction, whatever that means (Krishnamurti being an obvious example).
So yes, western culture is certainly more advanced in the sense that you and I can have this discussion without any fear whatsoever, but not more advanced in terms of the contents of the thoughts that we seek to defend.
You correctly note that "Muslims can also decide that Mohammed said some good things and some stupid things."
And I agree - with the caveat - Only in the west. What I say is challenge them. Insult their prophet. Point out to them that he was a mass murderer. I very much want to hear their defense of their prophet. I live in the west. I am a westerner. If Muslims have something valid to present in the realm of spirituality, that can withstand the openness of criticism, then have at it. As a westerner, I have no obection whatsoever. But neither will I defend the legitimacy of their ideas merely on the grounds of their skin color or the fact that they are a minority in the west with regards to their belief system. This is the West. The open frontier of ideas. Why should I?
Caroline
when I say that the western mind is more evolved in these things than the "Muslim mind" - you imagine that to be a racial statement. I call bullshit on that. "Muslim" isn't a race. It's a belief system to which people of all races adhere (including caucasian peoples in the west). So that racist stuff is bullshit as far as I'm concerned.
In fact, the way I see it - you're the racist. You're the one creating a division between brown-skinned and white skinned people.
eh?
I don't think it's a race issue. I never once stated that it was a race issue, I don't think you're racist, I never have gotten the impression that you are racist.
You correctly note that "Muslims can also decide that Mohammed said some good things and some stupid things."
And I agree - with the caveat - Only in the west.
Yes, in the West Muslims can and do question their beliefs (and the way in which those beliefs are interperted). In dictatorial, totalitarian or theocratic muslim nations, they don't have this freedom.
Is the problem the religion, or the dictatorial, totalitarian and theocratic governments that don't allow people the freedom to interpert their religion?
After all, 500 years ago, you and I would have both been considered heretics and possibly burned at the stake. Was it because of the Christian religion, or the theocratic buffons who held the reins on the populace?
Political freedom seems to lead to more freedom of thought in religion (possibly any religion, including Islam).
After all, not 100 years ago in this country, Jehovah's Wittnesses were persecuted and some left for dead, by faithful Christians carried away by patriotic zeal.
In Greece today, Jehovah's Wittnesses are persecuted, spit upon and denied the freedom to meet. Why? Because the Greek Orthadox Church has a lot of political capital and spends it.
If democratic reforms happeened in Iran, Iraq, Saudi, Yemen, etc. We would probably see a much greater variety in Muslim viewpoints, not because the religions changed, but because the government would be less totalitarian.
Tosk - you have my humblest apologies - one should never post after hasty reading, especially after 4 beers! You did not call me a racist and I shouldn't have been so rude to you. Obviously I'm getting defensive about this. I have been called racist and bigoted and Islamophobic - I certainly can't object to the last term because I am Islamophobic. (But it strikes me as reasonable to be fearful of a belief system that calls for my death).
Yes - if Islam can be reformed that reform is much more likely to take part in an open, democratic society. We're already seeing some sorts of attempts at it in the west - like the woman who led the mosque service in NY (last I heard she was teaching her classes at Virginia Commonwealth U via video because of death threats).
But I have big IFS re its reform that many others have discussed at some length, primarily because there IS no organized "church" authorized to mandate those reforms. I read one Muslim apostate article kind of laughing at all these western Muslims each individually saying "this is Islamic, that isn't Islamic etc etc" to the point that ultimately there could be as many supposedly self-proclaimed real Islams as there are Muslims. Incidentally - when I say that I view the death and resurrection of jesus as a metaphor (i.e. I suspect he was a fully enlightened human being - like the Buddha or a handful of others) - and if I say that i do not believe he was literally the son of God (again I see it metaphorically) and if I don't believe he is my savior - then how could I call myself a Christian? Obviously I'm not. So yes - I can decide that the death and resurrection is a metaphor (or I should say a possible misunderstanding about what happened) - but I am not still claiming to be a Christian. I relinquish that. Actually, I usually call myself an ex-Catholic. (I don't believe in Papal infallibility, I don't believe in transubstantiation, I don't believe in the blessed sacraments, etc. - so in what sense can I claim to be a Catholic?)
Coming back to Islam though. Unless someone believes that Muhammed was the final prophet of God and believes that the Koran represents God's literal word to man as channeled by Muhammed - how can one call themselves a Muslim? Which brings us right back to Muhammed. He is the center of the whole ideology. One may pick and choose the nice pieces of the Koran to live by - but that does not a Muslim make, any more than rejecting papal infallibility still makes one a Catholic or rejecting Jesus as the Son of God still makes one a Christian, no matter how much one might try to live by certain Christian precepts such as Love thy neighbor as thyself.
So back to Muhammed. In my random readings today I came across 3 more stories about Muhammed and his followers: One of his followers stuck an arrow through the one eye of a one-eyed man who was sleeping - straight through till it came out the back of his skull; another tied the legs of an old woman to 2 camels and they ran off in opposite directions, tearing her in half. A third stabbed a pregnant woman in the stomach and killed her. All 3 were just fine by the prophet. He was evidently pleased.
Anyone who thinks that such a man cannot be the most perfect human being and the final conduit of God's word is not a Muslim.
Here's the biggest problem I have. People like Osama bin laden and Zarqawi ARE good Muslims. They are precisely following in the footsteps of Muhammed. Most Muslims are perfectly aware of this, despite some of their denials. Frankly, it is disingenuous to simultaneously condemn them but praise Islam. Westerners who refuse to condemn Islam have no business condemning its most faithful followers. That's totally hypocritical. Frankly, I think I'd rather condemn Islam (and its creator, Muhammed) than even UBL. All the believers and apologists for Islam can't help but create faithful adherents. What is the rationale for condemning Islam's most faithful adherents while praising Islam itself as one of the great world religions?
Caroline
What is the rationale for condemning Islam's most faithful adherents while praising Islam itself as one of the great world religions?
Ah, but I don't see Islam as a Great World Religion. In fact I don't think that great and religion should be used in the same sentence. Spirituality is great, religion breeds dogma and dogma breeds idiots.
;-)
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Perhaps it will make a difference in your day, month or year. Who knows, it could change your life!
I hope this is of great benefit to you, and maybe you can pass it on…
How to Begin to Achieve Your Goals
Once you have set your lifetime goals, the best thing that you can do is set a 25 year plan of smaller goals that you should complete if you are to reach your lifetime plan.
From there you can just shorten your overall goal spans for example, you set a 5 year plan, 1 year plan, 6 month plan, and 1 month plan of progressively smaller goals that you should reach to achieve your lifetime goals.
Each of these should be based on the previous plan. It is the best way to begin to achieve a lifetime that is filled with and results in a life without any failed wishes. It results in a life without regret.
You see, by starting out slowly, you are giving yourself the chance to realize and work on achieving the goals that you set out to.
Nobody ever succeeds at attaining a goal that was forced through. Those that tried never really got what they were hoping for. In rushing through and trying to achieve your goals quickly you will likely miss a few key aspects that can really change your outcome.
Think of it this way; if you were to run a 10K marathon and decided to take a cab for half of the journey; have you really achieved that goal? Would you be satisfied when you crossed the finish line?
It would be a hollow victory that could only provide a moments happiness.
Finally set a daily to do list of the things that you should do today to work towards your lifetime goals.
At an early stage these goals may be to read books and gather information on the achievement of your goals. This will help you to improve the quality and realism of your goal setting and in effect; make it easier to achieve them.
You also have to review your plans, and make sure that they fit the way in which you want to live your life.
Once you have decided what your first set of plans will be, keep the process going by reviewing and updating your to-do list on a daily basis.
You have to periodically review the longer term plans, and change them to reflect your changing priorities and experiences in your life.
Have a GREAT day, and set a few new goals while you’re at it!
You can find more "tidbits" on goal setting at Reachable Goals.
PS. If this was helpful to you and you think someone else might be able to use it please pass it on. You never know, you could change someones life with this simple information!
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